submersible vhf's- a report.

[georgieb]

I have put this post up tonight not to bore the jacksy off you all but to help any one who's got one to keep it working and help or confuse the newer entrants ( and its seems there maybe a fair few getting involved soon) about which radio to get.
This report is only about so-called submersible handheld vhf radios that i have experienced .
I have - a Silva S12 cost about 75.00
- Entel HT640 cost about 140.00
- Icom M1 Euro V cost about 160.00 (gift to me)
I am not bragging about how much i've blown on radios- i need 2 anyway for me and my daughter, and i bought the entel indesperation as the other 2 had failed. I mention the price really to illustrate that some radios are twice the price of another at least - but are they twice as good.

The SilvaS12

Despite the fact that mine isn't working and on its way back to silva- i still think its a good radio for the price and i was generally happy with it. Although its 4 watts compared to the other 2 being 5 watts it was a robust build, straighforward to use and i thought pretty well waterproof by the way it was made. It has recenty started making odd nioses and the battery wont hold an ounce of charge- i dont know the problem, if open the case up i void the warranty- i suspect water ingress. I know its not the answer but if you put this radio in an aqua pack it maybe be a good set up for the price -you would have the aquapack protection and also know that in the worst of situations your radio would still have some integral waterproofing of its own inside and outs of it. This radio is at the lowest end of pricing i think for so-called submersibles- so you probably get what you pay for i think. When i hear from silva about what went wrong i'll let you know.

The Icom M1 Euro V (top of the range model for me- it was a pressy from my mother for Christmas).


i have to say i was so pleased to get this set being a bit of a gadget man i like a new toy. But this was also to be an emergency communication device as well as other uses.
It is a fancy device far more functions than any local kayaker will ever need, 5 watt power normally.
I have had it since january this year (late xmas gift). I've looked after it like a baby. Its now back with Icom for repair.

Some features i don't like - if you hit Ch16 the device goes to low power (1 watt) by default. I understand the reason is to save power for obvious reasons- but the way i see it is that i dont want to be in a crisis loosing communication with help because of low power and i am there possibly in the water in bad conditions trying to find the high/low button to boost the power up, anyone with struggling eyesight will be unlikely to see the marking of the buttons in such a case.

The main problem is the battery pack and the radio's so-called submerible qualities.
The battery pack only loosely fits to the radio and simple plastic clicklock hold it on and makes contact with a rubber gasket of small dimmension to form the waterproof seal which in my opinion it fails to do in useage ,the reason being is because the battery pack will move if you touch it therefore breaking the seal and as we all know water if it has the chance will find its way in anywhere.
You can see the battery pack side on here, this physically moves if you touch it.



Icom in the manual tell you to rinse the radio in tap water after use to prevent salt crystals building up in the keys etc. They should also tell you (but dont as far i can see) to remove the battery pack and rinse all the terminals down and dry them everytime you go out -because it gets wet with saltwater like this



so as to prevent corrosion like this.


sorry about picture quality- half the terminals were totally corroded. I did not know about the corrosion until my radio started going off evertime i touched it. Turn on- go off again. The reason now obvious that as i touched it i broke the frail contact the battery had with the corroded terminals. I cleaned the terminals up but i have still have the same although less severe problem. I know have to strap the battery pack on tight with ducktape to use it with any degree of confidence. Not what a top of the range submersible handheld vhf should be like after such a short time . On top of that my radio has developed a problem where hardly anyone can hear my transmissions regardless of what power setting is used.



Sorry Icom but i cant recommend this radio. Its not upto withstanding the conditions kayakers might find themselves in. (I will demonstrate the get out clause for all this later on if i haven't bored you to death already.

Entel HT460



Only had it a few weeks and so far very pleased with it- but will reserve final judgement for 6 months.
It is no where near as fancy as the Icom EuroV, for the kayaker, unless you paddle to America it has every function you will ever need in a straightforward and easy to use manner. Ch16 stays on full power (5 watts)when called up. When turned on it reports for duty extra quick. Many other features have impressed me. Most importantly is the build quality- they claim it is made to robust industrial standards. Their website details the tough Military specs that it conforms to and the conditions it is suposed to withstand. The battery pack is like the Icom Euro V sealed with a small rubber gasket only this time the battery pack is pulled down tight against it with a thumbscrew with screwdriver slot in it to hold fast a watertight seal when in use. This gave me great deal of confidence in this radio being submersible and surviving.
Picture compares battery packs and how they fit of the Entel and Incom.


with battery packs on



still the EntelHt640 only seals around the battery terminals/contacts. Water can get in the batter pack casing . Would be good to wash this off each time with clean water i think. So far i feel i can recommend it.


Finally to my surprise on both of these radios (Entel and Icom not seen on Silva) was that they are widely advertised in the press and internet for use as a communications device on boats that is waterproof and submersible (intended for tough conditions therefore). They are equipped with International Emergency call-up Channel16 you therefore assume they are intended for possible emergency use (to call up help in the event of distress). Even the operators manual gives a lesson on how to call up emergenvy assistance on Ch16. Yet ....... could someone out there explain to me why both of these fairly high range radios have these get out clauses hidden in the battery pack compartment - I have never seen these "not intended for......" details ever mentioned by advertisers of these radios.

[zebra]

we need to email icom and sentel and see what the responce is i will do it right away and report the responce as soon as i recive it .
a great post george thanks for such a compelling read

[zebra]

i have decided hat this is to important for an email i will phone them tomorow and post the responce .

[rzaskar]

Quality report there George youve givin me a much better idea of what to look out for when I get one. Will be good to see how you get on with the Entel

[rzaskar]

Any recomendations of places to purchase VHF's ;D

[starvinmarvin]

I've been running the Entel HT640 for about 18 months, it's been very good, only signs of corrosion have been the bottom contacts on the back of the battery below the belt clip, nothing serious though.

The Radio does have a habit of turning itself on when kept in a bag or clipped to the PFD, the switch is quite sensitive. My main worry has been that it will go from showing a full charge to empty within an hour on standby, no warning at all, it's only caught me out the once, but worrying none the less.

I am now experiencing problems charging the device as well, doesn't appear to be making contact in the charger base so have to ram a screwdriver down the front of the case to make it work. Will be contacting Entel after my next trip in a couple of weeks, will let you know how I get on.

Oh yes, its been in the water quite a few times and is always rinsed off with fresh water.

On a slightly different note, if abroad and rinsing gear off even in a shower, check that the water is fresh and not saltwater, a friend ended up with gear that was rusted and reels ruined after washing each night in the shower... it was saltwater!

SM

[Marc Jones]

I got my Silva from www.redcar-fish.co.uk/subcat.asp?parentcategory=58&category=VHF%20Radio
£70 + £7 P & P
Entel is £140 + P&P

[stitch]

Hi George
I had to stop reading as far as the price you paid for your S12. i have the same model but mine cost me £140 from stockport last Christmas. Apart from the radio it came with the charger and a back up battery pack for AA batteries that fit onto your belt i think for land use.

Let me know were you got yours from

John ;D ;D ;D

[stitch]

Have just read the rest of the thread, excellent report George, good info and not just for the novice.

Please tell me you got a one off bargin for the S12 to put me out of my misery

John ;D ;D

[johnlegg]

don't worry john they used to cost that much, I paid £140 app 2 years ago for the same radio and my mate Martin only paid £80 last month .
john

[zebra]

Hi guys
Today I spoke to icom and asked them to comment on a few points I had for them
Regarding the euro v the replies were as follows.
I asked about the battery compartment not being a tight fit .the answer I got was they don’t have to be a tight fit it does not matter if the back of the battery pack gets wet there is a rubber seal which protects the battery contacts and as the battery is inserted this seal closes tightly against the battery connections and makes them waterproof to the recommended specifications if however the radio is used outside the specifications recommended ie submerged deeper than recommended then we can not guarantee the seal will keep out any water .if the radio does get wet or splashed it should be washed in clean fresh water .
My next question was when the battery is removed from the radio there is a disclaimer saying not intended for distress or emergency use yet it is widely reported amongst retailers that this unit is for exactly that and you also on page 2 of your user manual give a clear example of making a distress call.
answer well we have to put a disclaimer on the radios to legally cover icom the radio is only a safety aid not a lifesaving piece of equipment it is the same as your pfd it will not save your life if you fall in the sea and get knocked unconscious but it will aid you to stay afloat while help is summoned .you have to remember that this radio was made but icom 5 years ago and at the time it was the most advanced radio of its kind so may not be the best radio at this time as others have caught up a bit that’s why we(icom)have a new radio which has a much better battery mechanism which fastens much tighter than the other models it is also 6 watt so is more powerful than all the other models on sale now .
the guy I spoke to for half hour was a very knowledgeable person he answered all my questions very well and sincerely he then assured me that any member with a problem in an icom would receive his personnel full attention and then wished us all well and offered to help in any way he could .it was great to get his views I also tried to speak to 2 other manufacturers silva and entel but no body was available to speak to me at the time I left my phone number with the other companies we will have to just see if we get any calls from them .

[hatter3]

good report george and well put together
well done terry it not often that you get that type of customer
service from a company by just a phone call it go's a long way when a company will talk to you about some of the problems
on there radio's and the time to explain .
it will be intresting to see if any of the other company's get back to you

[zebra]

I asked the guy from icom some really tricky questions and he was only to pleased to give me sensible answers to them when I first phoned there was no problem they rushed around to find the head of marketing for me I was impressed by the level of customer service I got from icom .its a shame entel and silva was not available to talk to me .

[georgieb]

Sorry to be late replying to some of these excellent posts - i have just come in from using this: (and other lures- please dont delete me admins because i was wading in the surf and not on my kayak- sort of half kayak fishin'


in this lot



trying to catch some local predators - will let it clear a bit and try again tomorrow.

First one for Stitch - i also got a back-up battery pack for mine john, i know its not waterproof but could have been handy if you were still sat in your kayak and half dry. That back up thing cost me £25.00.
So add that to the radio and we get near the £100. So you weren't done so badly. If you had a car charger as well then you would have had on Ok deal no doubt. Like other posters have said all this stuff is getting cheaper each time you see it.
My worry about the S12 like i said is whether it is so really waterproof or not - maybe i had a tricky model. I dont even know the cause of its troubles yet- will keep you posted when i hear from silva. Regardless of all i said i still think its a good radio for the money and i,m looking forward to it comming back.

Icoms response to terry - first a big thanks to him for the effort made to get a response from Icom today, and a big thanks to them for their attitude and response to him.
I still dont agree with what has been said by Icom.
First- earlier this year most chandlers were advertising the M1 EURO V as the latest Icom offering at this level not that it was so many years old.
Second- regardless of their claims the battery pack has a fundamental weakness in its ability to keep water out. In my case it did not seal correctly and i believe this to be a very weak point in this radios design.
Third- the disclaimer is ridiculous. it does not make an ounce of sense to me. Why build a radio with an emergency Ch16 and give emergency procedures in your manual to then print of the battery case 'Not Intended For Safety or Distress Purposes'. That disclaimer really means their confidence in the product in emergency situations is compromised.
If they dont intend the radio to be relied upon in life or death circumstances then surely they should simply state that such as with the PFD example - 'not intended to be a lifesaving device' which would be different.
But to make a radio that has emergency procedures attached to it and say its not intended for that use seems strange to me.
Anyway it was never my wish to open up a battle with the Icoms marketing managers of this world only to let fellow forum users know whats been happening in my kitchen lately. very much appreciate the comments from everyone and info and effort from terry. will keep you posted.
Best wishes to all.

[zebra]

I have today received a follow up phone call from Sam at icom just to ask if the points made by the forum thread were ok. Sam and Ian from icom also stated that they would look into the possibilities of donating a prize at some point for maybe a kayak match.
I have emailed both Sam and Ian with the thread link so they can both have a look at the posts made Sam ended the call with if in anyway we can help your guys gust let us know and we will do our best .I als tried again to call the other manufacturers again entel and silva but once again was fobbed of with no body available to talk to you .having now spent 2 days talking and trying to talk to some of the major radio manufacturers I have to say the level of service icom have shown is amazing I for one would consider this if you are looking for a radio I have found icom very easy and professional to talk to and with the new hand held radio in which things like the battery seat and seal arrangement have been greatly improved not to mention that it is 6 watts the most powerful available I would think that all this adds up to a very good radio it is important to realise that when you buy a radio you are not just buying the piece of equipment but also you are buying the backup service and just to finish off
Sam has promised to have a personnel look at Georges radio and sort out the problems

[georgieb]

10 out of 10 for Icom.

Regardless of my comments you really cannot ask more than that from anyone. Having been in the way of business all my adult life i know what its like to be on the recieving end when things go a little bit wrong. Congratulations gentlemen.

I totally agree with terry that Icoms new offering if improved in the way described with the back-up they obviously are prepared to give is well worthy of serious consideration and i shall certainly do so in the future.

[TimO]

Great report GeorgieB,
I've got an icom IC-M31 which has a screw down battery cover. Just given it a good soaking in the sink then opened it up. Bone dry. This must be one of the newer radios they are talking about.

Cheers
Tim

[zebra]

hi timo
the new radio is m71 here is a link to the specks he icom website www.icomuk.co.uk/categoryRender.asp?categoryID=3510&cCID=5013
i think the m31 also uses the new battery system as well .

[victoriapierangling]

great post georgieB nice to see so many are looking at this post
and showing interest in it .

i have just been on to icom about stocking there radios
they are phoning me back later today

[rzaskar]

Ray let us know if ya getting them sounds like icom is the one to get. Always gives the customer confidence when you hear storys like that. Well in Icom

[zebra]

hi guys i hope to have some important news from icom early next week .

[victoriapierangling]

hi to all we will start to stocking the icom radios very soon .
spoke to the people at icom and they are sending me the prices .
i will let you tell when they are here .

[zebra]

hi guys just a quick note icom have offered to send me one of the new radio's m71.to test I hope to have it sometime next week so we can all have a go at it and see the improvements for ourselves .what about that for a company trying to help I think icom deserve a big pat on the back for taking the time to make sure us kayakers get the best piece of equipment for the job its a shame the other manufacturers mentioned on this link did not bother to even give us a reply .I know where my money will go when I need a new radio .

[dreadfish]

whatever handset you buy ,get hold of the inflatable carry bags sold in boat shops they will carry a mobilephone/vhf/wallet/carkeys and if you do drop it at least it will stay closeby for a while,you can even carry out a chat on your mobile still in the bag.

[zebra]

I think one of the problems with the waterproof bags are that your voice sounds muffled talking through the plastic bag (i have tryed them )if I was in the water needing the coastguard or whoever to come rescue me the last thing I would want is my voice to sound muffled or distorted .I would want my voice and location to be as clear as possible to my rescuers without any doubts as to where I was caused by my voice being unclear .the best solution is to buy a radio that is designed
to be waterproof when safety is involved always go that extra mile and spend as much as poss on the equipment it may save your life or maybe someone else's life there are many cheap radios available that are not waterproof and need a waterproof bag to protect them but if they need a bag to protect them against water are they really designed to be used on the water if you need to be adding things to it to make it usable ? .on the other very good point dreadfish makes attach a small float to your radio strap then you will be able to se it ok and it will float and not just disappear if you drop it .